moominmolly | a serious inquiry:

do something enjoyable with them. take them to the woods, put them on a pony, read them poetry, listen to them talk, tell them how i'd miss them.

this has not been a hypothetical question for me.

There's a million ways, I think, and -- it depends on the person. One thing that might apply to most people is: share a new-to-them experience. The quiet of mountains with a far horizon, or molecular gastronomy, or a new mind state, or a book of poetry, or Cirque du Soleil.

It's still tricky, though, because they've got to be open to it. If I wanted to take something like this on as a project, I'd probably ask them to go along with three (or five) new things that I orchestrate for them. I'd try to internalize these for myself as things I really want to share with this person before they go; because they might not be persuaded, and even the thought of being persuaded might be distasteful to them. So maybe just sharing. I'd be sad if I never got to share these with you, and so, so happy if you let me. I think they're beautiful, and you're beautiful, and I want you to experience that beauty.

Something like that.

So, this feels like a copout, but I can't come up with a better answer: I'd say step one is try to understand how they came to that decision.

Step two depends a lot on the results of step one.

This has not been a hypothetical question for me, either. Often the real problem is biochemical, and the only lasting solution involves finding and addressing the underlying issue. And that can be a frustrating quest involving multiple doctors who Don't Get It and extensive self-driven research, exactly what folks in this state don't usually have the ability or will to do.

The right doctor can work wonders for such folks. But they're few and far between, and getting the person to go see the doc can be a big challenge for the concerned friend. Hard stuff.

Oof, this is so hard. So hard. I'm sorry your worried for your friend/loved one.

It's pretty hard to give you ideas without knowing more about the nature of their hopelessness ... biochemical? multiple/hard losses? chronic poor health?

Love them. Let them know that you love them. Let them know what a huge loss it would be for you. I've worked with many many suicidal people... most of them say what stops them is knowing the impact it would have on their loved ones. (That or their spiritual beliefs.) They almost never say "I know it'll get better and it just sucks today." They usually say, "It would devastate my mom/husband/daughter, etc. I couldn't do that to them."

Really. It doesn't have to come across as a guilt trip - it can genuinely be letting them know how it would impact you.

I hope they make it.

I'd be looking for ways to be in contact on a day-to-day sense from a distance. Some thoughts: postcards, artwork, photos, phone, videochat, small daily/weekly presents (like food, books, silly joke plastic crap), newspaper clippings (physical or virtual).

If he's in a yurt, is he disconnected from others, not just you all? Can you help address that through technology or other means? Also, maybe specifically fostering contact with N. (and niblings, I forget if you have them)?

Also on the aspect f letting him know his loss would be huge for you, I would wonder about the shifting of roles you describe. If he's used to thinking of you and your siblings as dependent/needing and now he's contacting you for help, maybe it's harder for him to remember that in an emotional sense he's still the uncle and you need him in that role. So I wonder if focusing on needing his emotional support, talking about the support he's given you in the past might help.

Something that would be on my mind would also be wanting him to stick around so that as N. grows up, she has access to someone who knew your parents as an age peer. I'd totally use that if I thought it would work.

Sorry, this is a little scattershot. I'm so sorry he's feeling like that.

I would recommend to them the book _Hello, Cruel World_. Even if they are not actually suicidal. It really helped me to see the ways that I have choice in my life even when I am feeling stuck.

Also, I wonder if pictures of cute baby animals would help. I like zooborns.com a lot, and they have a book out now.

Don't underestimate learned helplessness. If there are ways you can give him power over things, try to do so.

On the other hand, respect him and his decisions. "I'll be sad when you're gone; you make my life better" doesn't have to be a guilt trip.

Respect your own boundaries and have someone you can talk with.

Ask questions about the short-term future. What are you looking forward to next month? Tell your plans for the short-term future.

Tell him of specific, concrete ways in which having him around improves your life. Remind him of specific, concrete shared history that made you happy - advice, jokes, shared adventures, etc. Tell him of your hopes for a shared future. Let him know how much you value his being here.

Must be terse as I am sitting in company meeting.
Recent research indicates that suicidal thoughts are caused by only two main factors:
1. Being inured to human suffering - as in this case with chronic health problems.
2. Loss of emotional support network.

You can improve the second, although it will be hard to do from so far away.

Edited 2011-07-06 17:29 (UTC)

I think there is lots of good advice in the comments so far about letting your uncle know that you love him, doing small things to keep in contact with him, being specific about why you're grateful for having him in your life, etc.

I also believe, based on my own experiences, that sometimes the most loving thing we can do is to tell people who matter to us "it's okay, I understand, you don't need to hang on for me." I don't know enough about your uncle's specific condition if that message is what he needs right now, but I guess I want to just gently remind you that words like this are possibility.

*Gentle hugs* I'm so sorry for how hard this must be.

It sounds awful, but if he feels his life is not worth living, then at least he can live for someone else. If you're really concerned, give him timelines like "can't wait to see you at Xmas" or "I just want you to see N do X, Y, or Z". Brain chemistry and circumstances may make him unable to appreciate anything now. What you can do is get him to survive long enough to have a chance to get out of that brain chemistry or circumstance.

I wish I had different or brilliant advice, but the stuff you've gotten so far is wonderful. Possibly life-saving. And it reminds me how glad I am for online communities.

Thank you for posting this.

i wish i had advice on this one. i have an ear to lend and stories to share if you want them.

Wow. I'm sorry you have this to deal with; it's always hard. And it's so easy to second-guess yourself over something like this.

A few thoughts:

1. You can't hand them YOUR reasons for living, you can only help them to discover THEIRS. I might be sad if I never got to see a waterfall or a forest or a puppy again, but for someone else, it might be anything from a Broadway play to a baseball game. So make it a question: What have you loved about living? What would you miss if you stopped?

If your loved one has lost the abilities necessary to do some of the things s/he used to love, what can s/he still do that gets them some of what s/he used to love? For example, I love walking in the forest. During the year that I was in a wheelchair, obviously I couldn't do that. But there are a few parks that have flat paths from the parking lot to a level place that was surrounded by trees. I couldn't WALK in the woods, but my husband could drive me to a woods and wheel me to a place where I was surrounded by trees. It wasn't perfect, but it beat the hell out of no woods at all.

2. If someone has lost their zest for life, they could be depressed and could need professional help, either medication or therapy. You could find a source of such things in their area and help to hook them up with those resources.

3. If the problem is uncontrolled pain from a medical condition, the person needs better pain management NOW. Contact their doctor and raise a fuss. No one should have to deal with intractable pain in this day and age, but because some people abuse pain-relief drugs, many docs underprescribe so as not to come to the attention of the authorities. It's often hard for patients to raise a big stink on their own behalf, and a lot easier for their friends and/or relatives to do so.

If someone is terminally ill, a good hospice can help a whole heck of a lot. Hospice docs and nurses usually put keeping the patient comfortable first, and easing the pain and helping with routine care often ends up making the patient live longer than they would have otherwise.

4. Sometimes people have genuinely good reasons for wanting to die. It's always hard to accept that someone you love wants to die, but sadly, sometimes the adjustment needs to be made in you, not in them.

There's a lot of good advice posted above. A lot of good ideas and a lot of sincere concern and well meaning intent.

I lived, for a long period of time, with someone who genuinely desired to die. The ideas above, of finding something they love to do, of reminding them about how they mean something to you and to your daughter perhaps, of what they'd miss if they die, are all predicated on the idea that this person can still connect to the world in that way, even a little. This isn't always the case. In some instances, reminding people of activities they love makes them feel *worse*- because they can't feel it anymore, but they remember feeling it, and that's one more thing lost. People that have descended into real and sincere end-of-life despair typically can't be reached by well meaning loved ones anymore because the sickness has taken over so completely. If that's the case, your whole paradigm must change because they aren't playing by the rules of a sane mind anymore. Sadness is often reachable by the tools above, despair is often not.

You did say "waiting to die" though, and maybe he's in that place because he's run out of energy. Whatever physical illness is going on might have drained him to the point of not caring. Not in that "I'm tired today" way but in that "I'm so drained of mental, emotional and physical reserves that I cannot think, speak or perform anything other than the most basic survival tasks".

I suggest making a list of things that are concrete, practical actions that could ease his strain, and don't assume he'll follow through. Enlist the partner if they're a good resource. Ask, beg, cajole, threaten w/e him into dealing with his anti-doctor issues. My mom hates going to the doctor but I reminded her that even if she went, the choices were still hers, what to take, what to do. But even getting them into the doctor's office that way is a start.

ok. Hope some of that was helpful. I wish you much luck and a minimum of heartache.

Oh... I'm so sorry, and I wish I had some advice.

I don't think I have anything to say that someone hasn't already said, but I'm sorry that this is part of your life.

Things I have done/said, in no particular order, and a few other ideas.

1. Explain that something has to die, it just is not necessarily one's relationship to one's body. Suggest they figure out what it is, hold onto something tight, and let it wash over them like so much water splashing all over their body, clearing out the pain. On the other side of death is always rebirth. Always.

This is part of what has kept me kicking all this time. I know I can't escape karma this way--only prolong it. Sometimes a vacation might be in order, though, hard to tell for others.

2. Explain that if they took their life, I would dip into the spirit world, grab hold, and drag them back kicking and screaming into this plane of reality. And then I would kill them for it. Ok, I don't always say that last sentence.

The interesting thing is how many folks believe me. Who'da thunk.

3. Tell them I am not judging them, and ultimately, the decision is theirs.

"But it would mean so much to me if you could come visit to meet N, or if she and I could come visit you first".

4. Dominated someone until the pain of catharsis erupted up and out of their system (I channel this from a different source and ask for guidance when I do it. Still, it is rare for me to do this).

5. Pray for them.

6. Kept vigil for them during the roughest spots.

7. Lit a candle for them.

8. Talk to them in my dreams, setting the intention before I drift off to sleep.

9. Learn a bit about how to communicate with them through lucid dreaming and have a word with them/get a better handle on what' appropriate on both ends.

10. Tell jokes.

11. Dance with them. This one can be difficult.

12. Write a poem for them (I barely control that consciously, though).

13. Paint/draw a picture with the intention of helping them to endure as long as is reasonable (if it becomes apparent what "reasonable is in this case).

14. Listen. I'm not always good at this one. Still, I try.

15. Surround them in my mind with golden light, visualizing them being nourished in that bubble.

16. Blow bubbles in their directions. Giving them a water gun to shoot them down. I did this recently with some friends and it was a lot of fun. No idea how it would work in this case.

17. Take them to the beach in good weather.

18. Get someone local to them to visit with their pet once a week, provided the person feeling self-destructive enjoys animals and is not (too) allergic.

19. Bring them home and spoon them all night (I did this recently after holding someone in my arms for an hour and a half while they cried at a social event. Ironically, we had more than a little in common and now are pretty madly in love with one another. Who knew?).

Note for 19: The two who had romantic intention/energy toward/with him energetically released him (mostly) into my hands that night. I was told I'd gotten further with him in the previous hours than they had since they'd known him.

20. Tell them how much you love and care about them and how important they are, not just to you but to others as well.

21. Tell them you are so sorry for the pain they are in. Tell them they have done so much for you, and request a way you can give back to them.

22. Tell them how much you respect them for their accomplishments and/or for bringing all the love into the world that they have. Remind them of ways they have helped you.

23. Don't judge them for this. Ever.

24. If they have net, take a video of N saying hello and email it over. Not sure how well-connected yurts are, but it's a thought?:)

25. Forgive yourself.

*cyberhug*

i really don't have much to add, there's been a lot of wisdom shared here. i don't know if it's possible for you to go visit too, but being there and just helping with the day to day stuff makes the most difference. maybe a gift card to his pharmacy to help with groceries or other medical expenses that might not be covered by medicare.

he might be conflicted about not wanting to desert you and your brothers -- potentially seeing it as abandoning the already-orphaned kids. letting him know that he doesn't need to hang on for you might be enough to let him know it's okay for him to go.

also, have any of you been able to speak with his partner about what's happening on a daily basis?

My thoughts are with you and your family. Sadly, I don't have particular suggestions; I'm embroiled in my own somewhat-similar situation. It's good to read people's ideas, though.

I'm so sorry to read this. And so glad you have so many wise friends.

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Mishmash of advice

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rambling reply

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